Notes on the sizes of some common targets, and accuracy standards, in no particular order.
B8 (B-8), normally shot at a distance of 25yds, Black is 5.54″ diameter
| Ring | Dia. (inches) | |||||||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| X | 1.695″ | |||||||||
| 10 | 3.36″ | |||||||||
| 9 | 5.54″ | |||||||||
| Black | 5.54″ | |||||||||
| 8 | 8″ | |||||||||
| Repair Center (Square) | 10.5 x 10.5 | |||||||||
| 7 | 11.00 | |||||||||
| 6 | 14.80 | |||||||||
| 5 | 19.68 |
| Name | Weight | Length | Notes |
|---|---|---|---|
| Penn Bullets Penn-Maxx, 152 Grain Semi-Wadcutter Bevel Base, now coated | 152 (nominal) | 0.570″ | These look more streamlined than the MBC offerings, but the first generation coating is a bit more messy, so I don’t like them as much. The newer coatings look better, but after the passing of the founder, the fate of this operation and mold is uncertain. |
| Missouri Bullet Company IDP #10-Grooveless, 155 Grain flat-base Hi-Tek 2 coated SWC | 155gr (nominal), 156 actual | 0.560 | 👍 Brinell 18 hardness. Best light coated SWC I’ve found so far. I measured about 156 grains actual weight, and an overall length of 0.5605″ |
| ACME Bullet 45 ACP 175 SWC-NLG Coated , 175 Grain bevel-base “Lipstick red” coated SWC. . |
175gr (nominal) | 0.5650 (approx 0.24-0.25″ shank) | 👍 Nice “lipstick” color and thick slick coating. Nominal Brinell Hardness 16. Good light SWC, seems to feed OK so far. Better than the 155 grain designs |
| Eggleston 200gr SWC | 200gr (nominal) | 0.617″ | Available in several colors. I keep buying them because there are limited runs of pink. |
| Berry’s Bullets 200 gr Semi Wad Cutter | 200gr (nominal) | .602″ | 👎 Max Velocity: 1250 fps. I want to like these, but I’ve had bad luck getting them to feed. And the prices on polymer-coated bullets are usually better. |
| Missouri Bullet Company“Bullseye #1” 200 grain coated SWC. | 200gr (nominal) | 0.644 | 👍 Brinell 12 hardness “for bullseye”. Lube-Grooved design, but coated, may be discontinued in favor of the groove-less coated version (HT-452200SGL), but can still be had in uncoated form. |
| Bear Creek 45 cal” 200 grain moly SWC | 200gr (nominal) | 0.6 | 👍 |
| Speer #4684 LSWC | 250gr (nominal) | 0.678 | 🚫👍 Sadly, this has been discontinued. Moly coated. They feed much better than I expected. |
Loads
| Bullet | Bul. Len | Charge | Velocity | Firearm | ES | StdDev | Case | Primer | OAL | Notes (Labradar series) |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| IDP #10, 155gr SWC. | 0.560 | 8.4gr Power Pistol | 1111 | 5″ Les Baer 1911 | 53 = 1144 – 1091 (5x) | 20.84 (5x) | mixed | 1.232/td> | (S40) 👍 Lots of flash, to the point it can be scary to shoot. Very Loud. Temperamental feeding, but lots of fun, accurate, if you stick with a magazine that works. This can be a great way to acclimate yourself to muzzle blast. While these are certainly not “kick free” in the recoil department, the actual thrust on your hand should be about 10% less than most “hardball” loads. This may be +P — they sure feel that way to shoot. Per Alliant load data, 0.1 grain above max for a 200 grain Speer Gold Dot, and 1.1 grains below max with a 185 grain Gold dot. I repeated this load again years later (S416) and got 1101 FPS. In a 4.25″ barreled commander (S417) I got 1088. | |
| IDP #10, 155gr SWC. | 0.560 | #60 ≈ 12.0gr Acc #7 | 1088 | 5″ Les Baer 1911 | 81=1133-1052 | 24.97 (11x) | mixed | Rem 2.1/2 | 1.25″ | (S218) Tried to get more flash than the S40 Power Pistol load above. Despite having over 40% more powder, there was less flash. START load per Western Powder load data, predicting 1,076fps (13.3gr MAX for 1,223 fps at 20,2000 PSI). |
| 175gr ACME SWC | ? | #56≈4.8gr Clays | 919 | 5″ Les Baer 1911 | 45[sic] = 944 – 900 | 14.0 (8x) | New/Demilled Speer nickel | factory | 1.25 | Functioned OK, I forgot my memory card, so no permanent record |
| Eggleston 200gr SWC (pink color) | 0.617″ | 4.0gr Red Dot | 795 | 5″ Les Baer 1911 | 87 = 832 – 745 | 25.95(10x) | mixed | Rem 2.1/2 | ??? | (S158) Accurate at the ranges I shot them. Some flash. |
| Eggleston 200gr SWC (pink color) | 0.617″ | #36≈4.5gr Bullseye | 847 | 5″ Les Baer 1911 | 45 = 862 – 817 | 12.50 (11x) | New/Demilled Speer nickel | factory | 1.25″ | (S225) |
| Eggleston 200gr SWC (pink color) | 0.617″ | #40 ≈ 3.94gr Clays | 780 | 5″ Les Baer 1911 | 29 = 799 – 770 | 11.11 (5x) | Nickel Plated | Rem 2.1/2 | 1.253″ | (S228) Cycled the action, holes were OK. |
| Berry’s Bullets 200 gr Semi Wad Cutter plated | .602″ | #40.25≈5.2gr Accurate #2 | 889 | 5″ Les Baer 1911 | 27 = 901 – 874 | 7.23 (10x) | Nickel Plated | Rem 2.1/2 | 1.217″ | (S227) Problems feeding. Unfortunatly I didn’t play with the OAL and loaded the whole box up in one go. |
Related Articles
THE 353 CASULL
Freedom Arms sometimes builds 5 shot 357 Magnum guns on their strong 454 Casull frames. Originally this configuration was called the 353 Casull. They are very strong guns and can take extremely high-pressure 357 Magnum loads. Here’s a link to An older John Taffin writeup of what’s possible when “With the 353 Casull, the only limitation is the strength of the .357 Magnum brass”. (Sadly the article has disappeared outside of the Internet Archive.) The original 454 Casull guns were built to handle 5 shots of a thick 45 caliber cartridge run at 65,000 PSI. A 357 Magnum chambering only adds more meat.
Revolver Size Measurements
Here are some revolver measurements I’ve had trouble finding.
Revolver barrels are measured differently than other handgun barrels, and will be longer for the same length. The length of the cylinder is not counted when measuring a revolver barrel, but the equivalent chamber portion of other barrels are counted. To convert a revolver barrel length, add the Cylinder Length (always more than the cartridge length). A revolver barrel will actually be a little “slower” than the same converted length, because has a gap between the barrel and cylinder that vents gas. See BBTI gap tests.
S&W revolver measurements from all 4 shooters:
| Frame Size: | J | K | L | N | X | Z |
| Grip Frame Shape: | RB, SB | RB, SB | RB, SB | RB, SB | RB | RB |
| Cylinder Dia(?) (mm): | 33.1 | 36.8 | 39.5 | 43.5 | 48.7 | 43.5 |
| Cylinder Length (mm): | 40.5 | 42.4 | 41.3 | 43.2 | 58.4 | 64.8 |
| Frame Top Strap Width (mm): | 13.6 | 16.6 | 16.6 | 16.6 | 16.6 | 17 |
| Frame, Window Height (mm): | 34 | 37.4 | 40.6 | 44 | 49.4 | 44 |
| Cone Length (mm): | 13.7 | 15.6 | 15.5 | 19 | 21.5 | 19 |
| Cone Width (mm): | 17.7 | 20.8 | 21.3 | 23.1 | 24.4 | 22.8 |
| Model Numbers: | 36, 37, 60, 340, 940 | 12,13, 14, 15, 17, 18, 19, 53, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 617 | 25, 27, 28, 29, 58, 624, 625, 627, 629 | 25, 27, 28, | 460, 500 | Governor |
255gr RNFP Bear Creek 45 Colt
I often paint myself into a corner when publishing my personal reloading notes in blog format. I’ll start a page by doing something like Exploring True Blue in 45 Colt (it works well, by the way). And then I’ll have a related question, like “would the 255gr RNFP at around 900 load that I like be even cleaner with a faster powder that ran at higher pressure and sealed the chamber better?”. And I’ll test this (so far the answer is no, but I haven’t tested many powders). And now the problem. I really want to group all this load data together since it’s related. But problems! I could duplicate the data on two pages, but then the copies will eventually get out of sync. I could expand the scope of the first page — but that can turn into a mess, like this page that is now about 3 different guns. I guess I may need to find a real content management system.
Anyway, here I went with duplication, and collected loads for the excellent Bear Creek Supply 45 Pistol Caliber 255 grain RNFP. It is about 0.651″ long. I think it’s a good bullet. The coating works well.
| Charge | Firearm | Velocity | ES | StdDev | Case | Ctg. OAL | Notes (Labradar series) |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| #45.75≈8.8gr True Blue | 5.5″ Ruger Bisley | 896 | 41=916-875 | 14.28(6x) | 2x Starline | to cannelure,(1.5785″ approx) | (S334, Shot record: 875, 892, 916, 905, 900, 888). Shot Indoors at 7 yards. Max for 45 Colt (14kPSI) per WesternPowdersHandloadingGuide8.0_WEB with a different 255 grain lead slug at 954 fps in a 7.26″ test barrel. |
| #45.75≈8.8gr True Blue | 20″ Rossi 454 | 1092 | 23=1106-1083 | 2x Starline | to cannelure,(1.5785″ approx) | (S392, 40 yards, same batch as S334) | |
| #50≈9gr (RCBS scale) True Blue | 5.5″ Freedom Arms M97 | 930 | 53=962-909 | 15.9(10x) | 2x Starline | to cannelure,(1.5785″ approx) | (S387, ~10-15 yards indoors) |
| #??? Acc #2 (from memoryy was between MAX of regular and START of 30kPSI in Western Powder data) | 5.5″ Freedom Arms M97 | 958 | 93=990-897 | 31.78(6x) | 6x Starline | to cannelure,(1.5785″ approx) | S460. 👎 Less consistent than True Blue, and did not keep the cases any cleaner. But it shot fine otherwise. |
| 8.6gr Power Pistol | 5.5″ Ruger Bisley | 956 | 33.2 | 13(?x) | S&B | to cannelure,(1.5785″ approx) | Rem 2.1/2 primer from an early post LabRadar series and usual details unknown. At the time I noted the bullet weighed 260 grains actual, but I haven’t found this to be the case with other batches. Approx drag -1.24 fps/yard |
| #58≈6.6gr of VV N320 | 5.5″ Freedom Arms M97 | 808 | 44=833-789 | 11.5(15x) | Starline | to cannelure,(1.5785″ approx) | 👍 |
Calculate BC with Labradar
Labrabaco is a really neat tool that takes the “ShotXXXX Track.csv” files Labradar writes to SD cards and calculates a BC (G1, G7, G8, RA4 rimfire) from the data.
“
It is written entirely in javascript, and runs in your browser. There are no server-side components. There is nothing uploaded to the server. There are no cookies. I shit you not (and if you don’t believe — read the code).
My deepest gratitude goes to entoptics @ longrangehunting.com forums, who has contributed multiple high-quality datasets and data processing ideas, to design, test and fine-tune the algorithms.
“
You can even save the webpage as an archive on your computer and it will work offline.
I don’t know how accurate the software is. More importantly, I don’t know how accurate the LabRadar is! I have certianly seen weird stuff happen when using it. Such as phsycially impossible “phantom” trace-tails that continue on at distances behind the target and show increased velocity. (This happens more at indoor ranges.) At the end of the day, the LabRadar is first-generation consumer-level technology. I’ve heard the company making it is the same one who makes the high-end ballistic dopplar radars companies like Hornady use to develop their bullets. I’ve heard the cost of those was into the hundreds of thousands of dollars. Here’s a neat story about Hornady using that high end gear to discover their bullet tips were melting, and prove they fixed it. You can see the fancy radar at about the 1:50 mark. It’s physically much larger than the Labradar. There’s only so much a small radar powered by AA batteries can do.
But even if the results are noisy, and amateur — there is still a lot of value in something that is easy to use, and boils down observations to a comparable number! It’s a better way of quantifying drag than “feet per second lost per yard traveled”, which is what I had been using. (Yes, I know that drag is actually a function of the square of the velocity, so that unit is fundamentally wrong. But the truth is, with the limited distance that I could observe, it was a more useful way to compare bullet performance in practice. Strange but true.)
I don’t compare the data I could get from a Labradar to the data I could get from a industrial grade systems. I compare it to having nothing — because the reality is I can’t set up better systems downrage at many ranges I shoot at. Sure, in theory I could plan a weekend around a well-prepared shooting trip. But in practice, it’s easier for me to squeeze in a quick trip to an indoor range during the week. The Labradar lets me get data from those trips, even if the environment isn’t ideal.
I guess that’s a really long winded way of saying that even if the BC numbers don’t agree with higher-accuracy measurements, and don’t work perfectly with ballistics software, they are still very useful. You can at least compare amunition you measure. And in the real world the ease of use is the the difference between having actual data, instead of gut feelings.
H4198
H4198 is a small stick-powder. Part of the “Extreme series” of powders that promise more consistent velocity at different temperatures. Old volumetric data may be obsolete, because kernels were shortened to improve metering, and new deterrent coatings added. IMR4198 is a different powder, despite the very similar name and IMR now being owned by Hodgdon powders (The “H” in H4198). They are similar powders, which in some ways is better since not every mixup will be catastrophic, but in some ways it is even more confusing.
Pictures and chemical analysis.
Bottom line: still evaluating. I have gotten good performance in 17 Ackely Hornet. It meters well for a stick powder, but with small hornet cases a fraction of a grain difference can matter.
Pros
- Meters well for a stick powder (small kernels)
Cons
- Stick powder shape does not meter as well as other shapes.
- Confusingly same name to IMR 4198 which is close but not interchangeable
Redding 3BR Pistol Insert
grains_thrown = 0.18 * pistol_insert_number – 0.33
pistol_insert_number = (grains_thrown – 0.33)/0.18
Accurate #7
“Accurate No. 7 is an intermediate burning, double-base, spherical powder … an excellent choice for high performance semi-auto handguns such as the 357 Sig, 38 Super, and 40 S&W. No. 7 is also a cost effective solution in larger magnum handgun calibers. Made in the USA.” Basically it is the slowest non-magnum pistol powder in the Accurate lineup. Similar to Longshot. It has less flash than Power Pistol, which is another excellent choice for high performance semi auto loads.
Bottom Line: Still evaluating.
Pictures and chemical analysis.
Pros:
- Throws accurate charges
Cons:
- bad feel when meetering — lots of resistance, like plastic or gum is in the mechanism
Ranier 185 Grain Flat Point (Discontinued)
SPOILER: seating to 1.245-1.248″ overall length did the trick. I used a LEE Universal expanding die to put just a bit of bevel at the very tip of the case, so there would be as much gripping the tiny bearing surface as possible.
I wish Ranier Ballistics would make bullets again. They had a line of plated bullets that competed with Berry’s Bullets, and they made my favorite 250 grain slug for 45 ACP. Sadly, changes in Washington state’s political climate pushed them out of the bullet business. But I did order 1500 of their 185 Grain Flat Point bullets at a great clearance price. They have a truncated cone shape. Unlike the 250 grain slug, I really haven’t been able to get these to work well for me. They have a narrow profile that seems like it’d feed well, and and dummys seem to cycle smoothly, but I have feeding problems I don’t understand in 1911s.
The bullet OAL is 0.5240″
The bullet has a small bearing surface, and is fat enough it can’t be seated too far out. At 1.260″ dummy rounds would hang up in the magazine. Even though the length is obviously less than the 1.275″ maximum for 45ACP, the profile of the truncated cone was wider near the tip than a round nose, causing a hangup in the magazine tube. It also caught on the ejection port when hand-cycling
What I’ve Tried in 45 ACP
New HYPR brass, Rem 2.1/2, #42.9≈8.38-8.48 gr of True Blue, 1.222″ OAL. Nominal 1000 fps per Western Powder 8.0 data using the hollowpoint version of the bullet. Actually 1007 fps, ES 83 = 1063 – 981, StdDev of 20.7 with 24 shots. No trace saved. I did have one hangup when feeding with a Springfield 7 round magazine. The round hung-up on the feed-ramp. The slide was properly behind the case-head (NOT bolt-over-base), and the magazine had not yet released the cartridge. The nose had hit the ramp and there was some set-back, but the nose was pointed up into the chamber when the slide came to rest. Sling-shotting fed it. I don’t think the problem was slide velocity, I think it “bounced” into position when stopping the slide.
Same #42.9≈8.38-8.48 gr of True Blue, but shorter 1.200″ OAL (1.197″ pre crimp), using 1x small primer brass (had more “grip” to it than the HYPR so should resist setback better), CCI primers, and a heavier crimp. Did not chronograph, but seemed pretty stout. Several malfunctions in a Les Baer magazine rebuilt with a Shooting Star follower, and a Wilson Combat (plastic follower) extra power spring magazine. Same kind of failure to feed where the round hung being pushed into the chamber
CCI Small pistol primer, mixed brass but mostly Blazer.; 1.200 after crimp. No Joy.
Same as above but 1.245-1.248″ OAL. Still need to try these. I tried seating longer at 1.260″ but dummy rounds would hang up in the magazine. Even though the length less than the 1.275″ maximum for 45ACP, the different profile of the truncated cone puts causes a hangup in the magazine tube. I also had failures to eject when hand-cycling until I worked down to 1.248
45 Colt (poor fit)
45 Colt: Starline, WLP primer, #80≈ 9.0-9.1 grains of VV N320, 1.5980″ OAL. 👎 bit of spitting in a 5.5″ FA M95. More muzzle flash indoors than I expected, but not overpowering. 941fps avg, ES 149=1029-880, StdDev 38.9(18x). VV Data says 8.9gr gives 1076fps in a 6” test barrel (MAX of 9.6gr 1175fps).
Interestingly, I had good success with VV N320 in 45 Colt in the same gun, but using #58≈6.6gr of VV N320, and a heavier 255gr Bear Creek RNFP for 808 fps on average, ES of 44=833-789, StdDev 11.5(15x). I don’t know how much is bullet weight, and how much is diameter.
I’m not really interested in trying other things to make this work in a 45 Colt handgun. But it might have a place.
45 Colt + True Blue
45 Colt is a wonderfully flexible cartridge in modern guns and True Blue is a particularly flexible powder that meters extremely well. I’ve been trying to standardize on using it more places.
I’ve also been trying to standardize on WLP primers, because they’re used for both +P/magnum and regular 45 Colt loads, and resist piercing. I may rethink this because of supply chain issues, and because they don’t feed as well through some primer tube fillers. But for now all of this data uses WLP.
| Bullet | Charge | Firearm | Velocity | ES | StdDev | Case | Ctg. OAL | Bul. OAL | Notes (Labradar series) |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 255gr RNFP Bear Creek | #45.75≈8.8gr True Blue | 5.5″ Ruger Bisley | 896 | 41=916-875 | 14.28(6x) | 2x Starline | to cannelure,(1.5785″ approx) | 0.651″ | (S334, Shot record: 875, 892, 916, 905, 900, 888). Shot Indoors at 7 yards. Max for 45 Colt (14kPSI) per WesternPowdersHandloadingGuide8.0_WEB with a different 255 grain lead slug at 954 fps in a 7.26″ test barrel. |
| 255gr RNFP Bear Creek | #45.75≈8.8gr True Blue | 20″ Rossi 454 | 1092 | 23=1106-1083 | 2x Starline | to cannelure,(1.5785″ approx) | 0.651″ | (S392, 40 yards, same batch as S334) | |
| 255gr RNFP Bear Creek | #50≈9gr (RCBS scale) True Blue | 5.5″ Freedom Arms M97 | 930 | 53=962-909 | 15.9(10x) | 2x Starline | to cannelure,(1.5785″ approx) | 0.651″ | (S387, ~10-15 yards indoors) |
| 225gr Penn Wadcutter | #50≈9gr (RCBS scale) True Blue | 5.5″ Freedom Arms M97 | 1004 | 10=1009-999 | 3.4(5x) | 2x Starline | to cannelure, 1.386″ | 0.5445″ | (S388, ~10-15 yards indoors, loaded in same batch as S387) |
Handloading Notebook 